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Location: Portsmouth's Teen Reading Group
Discussion: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
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Archaon6044 |
The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Nov 30 2007, 1:17 PM EST
Righty-hothis is a hot topic of conversation on internet news groups everywhere, so here, as we are a reading group, i think we should get into this debate. Main Points: Northern Lights, is the first book of a trilogy, called His Dark Materials, written by Phillip Pullman. It's being turned into a Big Movie Much of the book has been altered, to make it more "Child friendly" and suitable for younger audiences, as the series is actually a childrens book. There are very stron, very obvious anti-religious undercurrents running throughout the series, and towards the end of the the third book, a character who is supposed to be God, dies. The auther is known to be a pro-aethiest any comments are vallied, but I WILL PERSONALLY DELETE inappropriate or stupid comments comments I want this to be a structured, reasoned and polite debate, not to descend into a spamming or slagging match. Do you find this valuable?
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Archaon6044 |
1. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Nov 30 2007, 1:22 PM EST
i'll go first.I refuse to see the film on the grounds that it will be nothing like the books. Harry Potter supports my point, the first 4 books were really good, the films weren't worth the money spent on them. seeing the film will destroy my enjoyment of the book, and this is my all-time favorite series of books in the universe. I am an Aethiest, and proud to be so, therefore the anti-religious undercurrents present in the books is not what is stopping me. i'd particularly like for Fluxions, or some one else who is religious to get involved in this conversation, to add a religious-based argument against it. I declare this discussion open to the floor... 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
thechildrenoftherevo |
2. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Nov 30 2007, 5:28 PM EST
above, you said that "There are very strong, very obvious anti-religious undercurrents running throughout the series, and towards the end of the the third book, a character who is supposed to be God, dies.The auther is known to be a pro-aethiest" what a shame it is that these people have got somthing right for a change, it put's me in a bit of a pickle. do i boycot the film in protest of Paulman's "Selling out", or do i (continue) to boycot religion by going to see the film? how ennoying it is when the enemy get somthing right. unfortuneatly, they have got it right for the rong reason. they are boycoting it becasue they claim that it is anti-religion, which it is. but at least it is not pro-athiest propaganda. it teaches you to think for yourself, and that morality comes from within, which is far more beautifull than mporality coming from god. at the end of the book, dispite the fact that they know there is no god, becasue they have "Killed" him (i use quotation marks, becasue i have always seen it more as euthenasia, rather than murder), they are still able to do the right thing, dispite the fact that it hurts them so. i can see why the Religious right (and i appologise for this sweeping genraliseation, but i believe that i will be proved right), most of whom will probably be from the "Greatest democracy on earth" (thier words, not mine). what a shame that people like that are the ones with their fingers on the button. no, all of these people should be boycotting this "FIlm" becasue some things should stay on the page. just look at the travisty that was HP. the HP books where seen as a wonderfull thing becasue they got children reading, but the films runend that: "oh, i'll just watch the film instead." this is a shame, but not nearly such an important one as with His His Dark Materials. 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
3. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Nov 30 2007, 5:37 PM EST
no, it is is much worse than that. HP may have got children reading, but His Dark Materials has the all to rare ability to get children thinking. but if thety are just able to sit there, and let the senseord films just wach over them, then what will they have to think about? nothing. . i do not know if there is a connection or not, but i think that it was at about the time that i was working my way though His Dark Materials that i began to question my own faith. i am not trying to say that the books premote atheism, although i would say that athiesim is the way to go (but then i would say that). no, what i would hope is that His Dark Materials gives children, and adults too, the chance, the reason, the excuse that they need to really think about what they believe in. as to wether i shall see the fim or not, i do not know. part of me wants to see it, just to poke the eye of theist fools everywhere, but part of me wants to boycot it in protest that sometihngs should be alowed to remain on the page. part of me does not want to se it, becasue i do not want to ruin the imagees that i have in my head. i know what Lyra looks like, and i can see her Oxford. i can hear Yorik's voice, and i can see Will's stumps as clearly as the nose on my face. and i know that the films will ruin this. it happend with HP, dispite the fact that i only saw the first one. but another part of me says that i should watch the films, as otherwise, how can i properly dismiss them. Fluxions will remember the descusion that we had about the Koran and the Bible. how can you say that X is better than Y, that X is always right, and Y is always wrong, if you have only ever read X, and know nothing about Y? you cannot. Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
4. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Nov 30 2007, 5:43 PM EST
but then do i realy want to put more money into the hands of big film studios in the US? i do not. it is for that reason that i have no qualms about owning al illegal copy of the magnificent film, V for Vendetta, whereas i will legaly buy Old Boy, a wonderfly funny, dark film from Korea, as well as Brise Moi, a compelling and brilleant french film. i would estimate that about half of my DVD collection comes from outside the US, and alot of my Amarican films are from small, independant studeos, such as Lord of War.but this is nither the time nor the place for a Anti-Us rant. i know that i have gone on a bit, but i am not sorry for it. it is things like this that make teh internet so damn womderfull. thank you, Alec, for having such a good idea. Do you find this valuable? |
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Archaon6044 |
5. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 1 2007, 12:23 PM EST
you know that's possible the deepest thing you've ever said
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thechildrenoftherevo |
6. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 1 2007, 5:09 PM EST
well, i do not like religion. i am also slightly unnerved by the fact that the uni chaplin is siting at the next computer. i do not like that man. not becasue he is the chaplin, and thus a fool, but becasue he is not a nice person. sitting there, pitying me.well i've got news for you, god boy, i don't need your pitty, becasue i am right! Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
7. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 1 2007, 6:27 PM EST
Ps, do you agree with me?
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thechildrenoftherevo |
8. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 2 2007, 8:52 AM EST
i know that thi might not seen like a good thng to say, but please, please go to http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Pagethank you 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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spoon_pirate |
9. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 2 2007, 10:11 AM EST
But you could say that for those children who will never read the books - at least they can enjoy the story and they can perhaps gain something from it.Also: you say that morals should come from within (not without, i.e. from God) but if you look at 'proper morals' that we generally hold in this country, a lot of those are encapsulated in the Christian religion. This country has it's own National religion, and those Christian ideals have shaped our laws, customs, traditions and many other aspects of British life. Even if you don't believe in God or are not a Christian, you cannot deny that christianity and christian morals are a part of our daily life. If we relied on everybody's 'inner, natural morals' - who knows where we'd be! 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
10. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 2 2007, 5:32 PM EST
good point, good point, but who is to say that the morals that we all use in everyday life come from religion, and not that the morals of religon come from everyday life? surely it is better to live off morals from within, rather than from without? it means that we are able to work outr for ourselves what is right and wrong, and that is far more beautifull than getting your way of live from some outmoded, contradicy book whos modern version most likly has nothing in common with the origanal. i am not saying that we should not use the morals that we get from religion, that would be stupid. what i am saying is that we should folow these roles becasue we have diceided that it is the right thing to do, not becasue some old guy on a cloud tells us to. 0 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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crazystorygirl |
11. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 3 2007, 10:57 AM EST
i really don't see the problem with the book.here in the untied states it is a freedom of speech.and yet there are people here that want both the movie not to be shown and the books taken out of the stores.these same people wanted to see the movie because they thought that it was like c.s. lewis's books.but then they found out that it was the opposed.but everyone has a right to express themselves the way they want.why should we pretend that we believe there is a god if we dont just so that people will leave us alone.why is it that we cant speak our on minds through these books and movies.why is it that people shun those who are different; who show a different ideas of things.i think that if you are going to take a book and turn it into a movie than you should stick to what the book is about and not make where it has like on a few things that are right.just because it is not really all kid friendly.i think that kids need to see this movie or read the book for the fact that it will open their eyes to see that what they were told to believe in is not what everyone else believes in.though i do believe there is a god, i'm not going to say that the book and movie are wrong.for i see nothing wrong with them.it is a freedom of speech.we let the people that rule over us say what they want to say but we cant.but that is just me.
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thechildrenoftherevo |
12. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 3 2007, 2:37 PM EST
thank you!the reason these books are important are becasue they give an alternative version. i think that it is good that someone who does believe in god can have these veiwpoints. the problem with freedom of speech is that not only do we have it, but for us to make use of it, we have to allow those people who say wrong, dangerus things as well. if i want to have the freedom to say that there is not god, and that religion is the most evil thin to ever exist, then i need to allow others to say that i am wrong. but what i do not like is the fact that we are made to respect religon becasue it is religion. " "oh, you cannot say that these people are stupid, its religon, you need to respect their rights to say it!" but why? if sokmthing is wrong, if somthing is evil and dangerus, then we should say so. we should not qeep quiet, just becasue it is religon. people attack my athiesm time and time again, and yet if i attack them bck, then i am accused of being intolarant of religion! Do you find this valuable? |
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crazystorygirl |
13. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 3 2007, 4:43 PM EST
you're welcome and thank you.they knew before they even started making this movie of the author's point. what gives them the right to change the end of the movie when they knew how it would end in the first. if they are not going to stick to the story line then dont make it a movie at all. they makes movies like bruce almighty, noah's ark, and evan almighty; they are somewhat the same in theory. if you pay attention to them enough it is like saying that god is foolish. though i dont have a religon i do think there is a god. like the statement in bruce almighty,"does god take vactions?" "have you ever heard of the dark ages?" which brings me to another thing. if god does exist then why is he letting all of this stuff happen to the world he created? Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
14. RE: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
Dec 3 2007, 5:41 PM EST
what amazes me is that Paulman allowed them to make the film in the first place. he must have known that people would object to the story, and that it would be re-worked for the film, as such things always are.knowing this, why did he say yes? you might say that he did it for the money, but i cannot see somone like him doing somthing like that. if it had been my book, i would have agreed to it on the condition that i was the one to write the screenplay, or at least that i was alowed to look over the screenplay before hand. Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
15. the Sentient puddle
Dec 3 2007, 6:21 PM EST
One analogy Adams put forward about religion was that of the "sentient puddle". This analogy is intended to refute the suggestion that the existence of God and His love for mankind would be proven because the world is perfectly designed for our needs. He compared such thinkers to an intelligent puddle of water. He said the puddle is certain that the hole in the ground it occupies must have been designed specifically for it because it fits him so well. The puddle exists under the sun until it has entirely evaporated.Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
16. RE: the Sentient puddle
Dec 3 2007, 6:36 PM EST
whilst mulling alonng on wikipedea, i found a link to a very intresting article, that' although from a chritian site, is not so completly anti-pullman as to be egnored. although there is a link to it here (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/december/12.36.html?gclid=CM-yy66ijZACFQ5lQgod4ytXtQ), i hope you will forgive me qouting it in full. over the next few comments. thank you.
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thechildrenoftherevo |
17. The Chronicles of Atheism
Dec 3 2007, 6:37 PM EST
When The Golden Compass hits theaters this month, many will be introduced to the works of Philip Pullman, a writer who detests C.S. Lewis's fantasy world.Peter T. Chattaway | posted 11/27/2007 09:14AM The story begins with a girl hiding in a wardrobe. It continues with a series of adventures in which the girl passes through gateways into other worlds, meeting witches, figures from ancient mythology, and talking animals along the way. Ultimately, it takes her into the afterlife and to an apocalyptic battle between supernatural powers. Philip Pullman's trilogy, His Dark Materials, has some striking parallels to C.S. Lewis's The Chronicles of Narnia. Between protective beasts, snowy landscapes, and references to a prophecy only the girl may be able to fulfill, the ads for The Golden Compass—the first installment of Pullman's series coming to the big screen on December 7—look made to attract fans of The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe. New Line Cinema has also gone out of its way to link the new film to J.R.R. Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, which the studio also adapted. Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
18. The Chronicles of Atheism part two
Dec 3 2007, 6:38 PM EST
But His Dark Materials presents a strikingly different kind of tale from the ones told by Lewis and Tolkien; on a certain level, it even opposes them. Pullman, writing in The Guardian on the occasion of Lewis's centenary in 1998, said the Narnia books are "one of the most ugly and poisonous things I have ever read," with "no shortage of … nauseating drivel." Peter Hitchens, writing in The Spectator in 2003, named Pullman "the Anti-Lewis."While Lewis and Tolkien wrote stories imbued with Christian imagery, Pullman's trilogy—which has sold millions of copies and won numerous literary awards, including the Carnegie Medal and the Whitbread Prize—depicts the death of God and the creation of a "Republic of Heaven" that has no need for a King. And while Lewis and Tolkien kept the Christian elements fairly subtle—even the Narnia books have no explicit references to Jesus—a key scene in Pullman's trilogy shows a former nun telling two children that she left the Christian faith because it's "a very powerful and convincing mistake, that's all." Pullman's story begins in a parallel universe similar to our own, yet different in key respects. The heroine, Lyra Belacqua, is an 11-year-old girl from Oxford who goes looking for a friend, one of many children abducted by scientists working for the church. Along the way, Lyra is assisted by gypsies, witches, and an armored bear. As The Golden Compass reaches its climax, Lyra watches in horror as her father, Lord Asriel, kills a child using a technique that releases so much energy, it opens a portal into another world. Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
19. The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 3 2007, 6:40 PM EST
The death of GodSome Christians have expressed concern that if The Golden Compass is successful, it will lead to films based on the other two Dark Materials books, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass—both of which traffic much more explicitly in the death-of-God theme. In these books, Lyra discovers that Lord Asriel is mounting a war against God, and she meets a boy from our own world named Will, who acquires a knife that can cut through anything, including the barrier between universes. The knife even has a prophetic name, Æsahættr, which means "god-destroyer." By the end of the trilogy, God is dead, and Will and Lyra have reenacted the Fall in the Garden of Eden—but in doing so, they save the universe rather than destroy it. In Pullman's story, the God of the Bible is not really the Creator, but simply the first angel who emerged out of what Pullman calls "Dust." When other angels emerged, he lied and said he had created them—and he went on to set up churches in multiple universes, to assert his control over them. But now this angel, who is called "the Authority," is old and weak and faces a rebellion by angels and humans alike. Writer-director Chris Weitz, a self-described "lapsed-Catholic crypto-Buddhist," said in one interview that the film will not refer to "the church." But the movie's official website indicates that the cruel scientist Mrs. Coulter works for a villainous "dogma"-enforcing entity known as "the Magisterium," a Latin term that, in the real world, signifies the Catholic church's teaching authority. Do you find this valuable? |
