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Location: Portsmouth's Teen Reading Group
Discussion: The Golden Compass VS. The Northern Lights
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thechildrenoftherevo |
20. The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god cntd
Dec 3 2007, 6:40 PM EST
Nicole Kidman, who plays Mrs. Coulter, told Entertainment Weekly the film "has been watered down a little," adding, "I was raised Catholic [and] I wouldn't be able to do this film if I thought it were at all anti-Catholic."Then again: "If the first film was a film in isolation, I would say it's no big deal," says Tony Watkins, managing editor of the U.K.-based website www.culturewatch.org and author of Dark Matter (Damaris/IVP), a book that analyzes the trilogy from a Christian framework. "But it isn't in isolation, and it is part of a bigger picture." However, Watkins, while disagreeing with Pullman's worldview, says he appreciates the way Pullman raises important religious questions, especially in secularized Great Britain, where the books have already been dramatized on radio and in live theater. "While I don't want to encourage out-and-out attacks on the gospel, obviously, truth can stand for itself if it is given a fair hearing," says Watkins. "And one thing that this story does is it gets the [Christian] story into the public sphere. [In the U.K.], that has often been a bit of a challenge. But when there's some clear opposition, that's often when the Christian voice gets heard." Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
21. The Chronicles of Atheism part four- the a transcendant spiritualism
Dec 3 2007, 6:41 PM EST
'A transcendent spiritualism'Several observers argue that the books of atheist and materialist Pullman point in a more spiritual direction. One of the trilogy's main narrative devices is the "daemon." In The Golden Compass's universe, every human being is accompanied by an animal that reflects that person's soul. The daemons of young children constantly change shape, from one animal to another, because the children have not yet settled into their adult personalities. Watkins writes that the relationship between humans and their daemons—"united yet distinct"—ironically models the Trinity. And in Shedding Light on His Dark Materials (Tyndale), Kurt Bruner and Jim Ware argue that this device underscores, however unintentionally, the Christian belief that "personality and relationship" stand at the center of the universe. "Our intention from the beginning was to say, well, here's a guy who on the surface, overtly, is attacking Christianity and the church and the idea of God—and even saying that he wants to kill God," says Ware, "yet we can see ways in which I think he pays homage to Christian truth, maybe without intending to or even knowing what he's doing." Another central device in the trilogy is "particles of consciousness," or "Dust," which coalesces to form angels and human souls. In the final book, the spirits of the dead are freed from the afterlife; their particles disintegrate and are reabsorbed into the universe. Just as their physical bodies decompose when they die, so too do their spirits return to the earth. "Pullman the writer is creating a world filled with the reality of a transcendent spiritualism, even though he rejects that cognitively," says Bruner. "And that spiritualism is much more in line with Spinoza and New Age mysticism, or Eastern pantheism." Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
22. The Chronicles of Atheism part four- a transcendant spiritualism cntd
Dec 3 2007, 6:42 PM EST
Some have gone even further and pointed to Dust as a sign that the trilogy is "a Christian classic." In Killing the Imposter God (Jossey-Bass), theologians Donna Freitas and Jason King argue that Dust is a better symbol for God than the traditional image of a man "who rules from the clouds." They say Dust acts within the novels as "a divine force that desires, desperately so, to be in communication with its creation."Pullman says Christians may be reading too much into his books. In an e-mail to Christianity Today, he said Dust is just a metaphor "for human wisdom, science, and art, and all the accumulated and transmissible achievements of the human mind." Materialists do need to account for consciousness in the real world, says Pullman, so he subscribes to "panpsychism," which holds that "consciousness, like mass, is a normal and universal property of matter." In this view, all physical matter is conscious, to different degrees. "But without matter, it wouldn't be there at all." Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
23. The Chronicles of Atheism part five-Spiritual is 'delusional'
Dec 3 2007, 6:42 PM EST
Spiritual is 'delusional'Pullman says he avoids words like spirit and spirituality—and even feels "a slight revulsion" when he hears them—because, at best, they don't seem to correspond to anything "real," and at worst, they signify people who are seeing visions or undergoing other experiences he regards as "delusional." "So the word spiritual, for me, has overtones that are entirely negative," Pullman says. "And when I hear it, or see it in print, my reaction is one of immediate skepticism." While Pullman acknowledges the influence of his Anglican upbringing—his grandfather was a parish priest—he also rejects the idea that the values communicated in his books, such as love and self-sacrifice, are particularly Christian or indicative of any latent Christianity on his part. "The Church of England is so deeply embedded in my personality and my way of thinking that to remove it would take a surgical operation so radical that I would probably not survive it," he says. "But that doesn't prevent me from pointing out the arrogance that deforms some Christian commentary, and makes it a pleasure to beat it about the head. What on earth gives Christians [the] right to assume that love and self-sacrifice have to be called Christian virtues? They are virtues, full stop." Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
24. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part six- Borrowing from Milton
Dec 3 2007, 6:43 PM EST
Borrowing from MiltonHis Dark Materials borrows many elements, including its title, from John Milton's epic poem, Paradise Lost, which describes the failed rebellion of Lucifer. The trilogy also borrows from Gnostic mythology, which holds that the God of the Old Testament was actually a usurper who created the physical world to trap the spirit, the essential self. However, Watkins notes that Pullman opposes even Gnosticism in crucial ways, by depicting physical pleasure as a liberating alternative to religious faith. "He's such an arch-materialist, and so he completely rejects the Gnostic rejection of the material as being evil and the Gnostic embrace of the spiritual as the only thing which is good," says Watkins. "He's rejecting that and drawing on these Gnostic stories for inspiration and turning them absolutely on their head. "Pullman says he's just a storyteller," continues Watkins. "I think he's really slippery at this point. Because it's all very well saying, 'It's just a story, just a fantasy, some of the characters say what I believe and some of them don't'—but in his Carnegie Medal speech, he said stories create the morality we live by. "The trouble is, he blurs the line between fantasy and reality by giving interviews and talking about the Republic of Heaven in the world. And because he's got all of this anti-God rhetoric in the real world that is even stronger than what's in the book, I think he can't get away with saying, 'It's just a story and you can read into it whatever you like.' Because he does understand what he's saying." Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
25. sorry
Dec 3 2007, 6:46 PM EST
i know that was a bit long, but i thought that it was too important to leave out. i hope that you have got somthing out of it. Do you find this valuable? |
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crazystorygirl |
26. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 4 2007, 10:02 AM EST
pullman didnt really kill god. he killed an angel that pretend to be god. that reminds of satan but this angel succed in whata satan could not.one of the things that are bothering me is that when a 'christain movie' comes out, everybody deems it worth for everyone to see like passion of the christ. and no matter the religon or whether they believe their is a god or not they go and see the movie. and hardly anyone says anything bad about. but when a movie comes out that shows a different point of view the 'so-called christains' oppose it. what gives them to right to say such things about what other people believe? why must we who do not share the views of christains and catholics have to step down? why can they not appect what we believe in when we appect theirs? Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
27. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 4 2007, 11:51 AM EST
you are right of course. the simple answer is the you are expected to respect religion and the beliefes of others. but what these christan fools do not realise is that it works both ways. if they want us athiests to repect their right to believe in god, then they should respect our right to not believe. athiesm is just as much a beliefe system as any relgionk, and ity is the best one. it is the only one that accepts that it does not have all the answers Do you find this valuable? |
Archaon6044 |
28. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 4 2007, 2:10 PM EST
was that really neccessary? anyone m,ight think you were attempting to boost your contributions up. this was somthing i got out of that long winded thing:"expressed concern that if The Golden Compass is successful, it will lead to films based on the other two Dark Materials books, The Subtle Knife and The Amber Spyglass" God forbid that happening. destroying one of the books is bad enough, destorying the others is a travisty Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
29. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 4 2007, 2:43 PM EST
yes, i know what you mean, but now they have started, they are hardly going to stop are they? they cannot just leave the end hanging in space.assuming that they use the same ending as in the book, what are the chances that people are going to sit back and not ask for another one? unless it is all some sort orf evil plan: "Want to know what happens next? then read the book! [insert evil laugh here]" and do you realy think that i would sink so low just to boost my contributions? i have over 1000 of them on this site alone! Do you find this valuable? |
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crazystorygirl |
30. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 4 2007, 3:10 PM EST
even though i dont know much about what catholics believe in, i do know that it is somewhat like christainty. they are told not to judge people for what they believe in. and to treat others like you what them to treat you. but when we stand up agaisnt them we usaully wind up in jail. but when they stand up against us, nothing happens to them. we are only trying to express ourselves the same way that they do, but they dont want us to do that. they want us to be good little boys and girls and bow doen to what they believe in.
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Archaon6044 |
31. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 4 2007, 3:44 PM EST
i have a problem with the religious conflicts between religions here in the UK. i'm mostly annoyed that Islam keep telling us or complaining that our christian holidays are offensive to them, like christmas, simple answer: Tough shit, we're a christian nation, you'll put up with it!i detest PC (Political Correctness) with deep and fiery passion. it's so stupid we can't do anything without it being un-PC, but they (Everyone else) seem to be able to get away with whatever they want. Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
32. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 4 2007, 5:46 PM EST
it is a fair point. i mean, look at what happend with that woman and the bear. if they want us to respect thier laws in their country, then they should respect our laws in our country. no one is forcing them to selibrate christmass. and catholisism is a form of chritanity Do you find this valuable? |
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crazystorygirl |
33. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 5 2007, 5:17 PM EST
it is sad that we who are not christains or catholics follow what god told them to do better they do. if there is a god then he is probably very sad right now because of the fact that they do not follow the rules. it does not seem right that we have to rescept eveyone else believe but they cant rescept ours. i detest those who make fun of other peolpe's religions with a red passion.
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thechildrenoftherevo |
34. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 5 2007, 6:06 PM EST
i also detest those who mock religion, unless they can back up what they are saying.i think that it might be fair to say that i also ditest religion, but that is another matter it was a shame that I was the only one (apart from Dave, of course) that was at todays meeting. i was quite looking forward to discussing this matter in more detail, face to face. but then i suppose that one advantage of desscusing it online like this is that we can go back and look over what we hav said, we have a perminant record of it. i think that this has been one of the most sucsessful threads on the site, so well done alec! Do you find this valuable? |
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Archaon6044 |
35. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 7 2007, 1:44 PM EST
we havn't even made 3 pages? how is that successful? Que? is by far the most successful, coming in at 15 pages, and over 150 posts!
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crazystorygirl |
36. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 7 2007, 2:51 PM EST
i think that he means with all that we have talked about that it is succesful.i still say that if they cant make a book into a movie than they should not make it one at all. they do the same kinda of crap with harry potter. and it made it suck. the fifth movie of harry potter is the worse so far. both jk rowling and philip pullman are know for the belief that god does not exist. though i am not saying that what they believe in is wrong or pulling of tha tkinda of crap, i am just going to that i think that god does exist. there is too much that can not by explain. though i believe that there is a god, i am not going to follow him because a book tells me to. i have the right to live my life the way that i want to, and not the way that someone else wants me to. Do you find this valuable? |
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thechildrenoftherevo |
37. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 7 2007, 5:28 PM EST
if a book is going to be made into a film, then it should be done well.you say that you live your life the way that you want to, and not the way that someone else wants you to. but surly if you believe in god, and you get your morals from god, then you are living your life in the way god wants? surly the only way to live a life that is yours is to not believe in any god at all, as do athiests? and yes, i did mean that this was succsessful in th sence that i do not think we have ever had such a deep and meaningfull conversation on the wiki before. in that sence, it is a sucsess. Que? mwy be the longest, but let us not forget that great swathes of it are utter crap. Do you find this valuable? |
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crazystorygirl |
38. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 7 2007, 5:51 PM EST
i do believe that there is a god but i dont get my morals from a god. i get my morals on my on. i have to say that it is a point that you have made is a good but i have to disagree on that point. though i believe that there is a god, but at times i really wonder if the god is good or not. i know that probably doesnt make any sense. but there is still too much that is not know.
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thechildrenoftherevo |
39. RE: The Chronicles of Atheism part three- the death of god
Dec 7 2007, 6:06 PM EST
it can be a confusing issue. it took me a lot of thinking before i realised where i stood. it is a very hard thing to think about. it was made harder by me by the fact that my mother was quite religius. my father was, still is, sort of religus, but in recent years he has stoped going to church, and i think that he has begun to question his religion.
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